Many of us have hit a time of career crisis in our journeys. You're not alone, and Mandy Tang, career coach, author and Tick Tock influencer, joins Jim to talk about having a 'sacred breaking down' and using that to make space for the new. She utilizes her shamanic training to get us to a place where we can then create a new story for ourselves. You're in an actual 'relationship' with your work. Living someone else's dream instead of your own? Burned out? Listen in!
[00:00:01] The following podcast is part of the MindBodySpirit.fm podcast network. Looking for a fun take on modern spirituality? You've come to the right place. From new thought tools to the science behind the metaphysics, dive into interviews with the most interesting people in open spirituality and self-development. It's a Big Universe and I'm your host, Jim Lefter.
[00:00:28] Hey there, welcome to Big Universe. I'm Jim Lefter. I'm your host today. Hey, I'm a spiritual journeyman type guy and media producer. So all of us have had to deal with our working careers in our lives, of course, and it's not always an easy journey. I've certainly experienced highs and lows in my experience, and I think we all inevitably come to that dark night of the soul
[00:00:51] where we really have to come to kind of an understanding of who we are and what we want to do. So today's guest is here to give us some guidance in that. Mandy Tang is the author of Heal Your Career Wounds, Navigating the Trauma of Today's Workplace. A career coach and holistic healer, she helps clients from big tech, startups, and the nonprofit sector bring more creativity and joy into their work lives.
[00:01:17] Her training includes an MBA in finance from Columbia, certification as a trauma-informed yoga instructor, and completion of a three-year shamanic practice program. That really fascinates me. Mandy runs the popular TikTok account at Career Coach Mandy with over 161,000 followers, and the Muse named her one of the top 20 career coaches to watch on TikTok. You can visit her online at mandytang.co.
[00:01:45] Hi, Mandy. Welcome to Big Universe. Hi, Jim. Thanks for having me. There are so many things I want to talk with you about. We'll see what we can get to today. So my first question, the one I always ask at the beginning is, why did you write this book, Heal Your Career Wounds? Yeah. So I have been career coaching, you know, running my own private practice for almost 10 years now. And I love the work as a coach.
[00:02:14] You know, you hold space for people. You witness a lot of things. And people tell you, it's not therapy, but people are pretty open about what they're going through with their career, whether that is, you know, I've lost my job, or I am burned out from my job, or I hate my job. And like, what do I do next?
[00:02:35] And so I think after sitting with so many clients for many years and understanding that things are not always just a linear solution, like, oh, okay, go make more money, or, oh, okay, just go get another job. Like, usually there's something deeper at play. I just felt really compelled to bring all of what I had heard in those sessions to light
[00:03:02] and kind of create some language for us to talk about the things that happen at work and why it has such a psychological effect on us. I felt really privileged to be in all these conversations, and I wanted people to just realize, like, you know, you're not alone. Like, I know it feels like you're alone because you're just talking to me, but, like, I talk to people all day about this. And, like, you know, what you're experiencing is normal because I think a lot of times our instinct is to do –
[00:03:32] is to internalize and be like, I must be doing something wrong. Like, it must be my fault. And I wrote the book to basically be like, it's not your fault. Like, this happens to a lot of people. And you're not alone. So define what a career wound is and what kinds of career wounds are kind of typical. Yeah. So I think it's helpful to know that, you know, in our careers, we always want to be growing and we want to be learning
[00:03:58] and we want to be trying new things and exploring different parts of what interests us and what lights us up, right? But I categorize a career wound as anything that prevents you from doing that, right? So some sort of emotional injury that happened at work that either because you just haven't gotten over it, you haven't talked about it enough, you haven't processed that emotion,
[00:04:21] that kind of keeps you psychically stuck in one place and keeps you scared of change, keeps you from applying to a different job, from changing something, from just trying to pursue a better life for yourself. Can you tell me a little bit about your journey and maybe if you feel comfortable, some of the personal career wounds that you've had to deal with? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:04:48] So I really never thought I was going to be a coach. Like I started off and, you know, my career was in marketing and advertising. And so I worked in a bunch of like really big ad agencies in New York. I, you know, went to grad school, you know, to study business. I really thought I'm just going to be some like high powered senior executive. Like that was my whole goal.
[00:05:17] And after I sort of arrived, right, like I felt like I pretty much did the thing. I got the fancy degree and then I went and I worked at American Express, which, you know, if you're coming out of B school, like this is one of the best companies to work for. Yeah, yeah. You know, prestige and it pays well and they have this amazing work-life balance. It was like I got the gold star. Like I got everything that I wanted. And I just sort of was like, huh, is that it?
[00:05:46] Like, like is this, is this, is this all that there is for me? And so I started to get really curious about the startup world. And I was in New York at the time. This was like in the 2010s. And lots of startups were like coming out of New York. And I just felt like it was more exciting for me and, and riskier. But I liked that because I always kind of had a rebellious streak.
[00:06:09] Like, so I, I, I with a, with a co-founder, started a company in the fashion technology space. And, you know, it was a blast. Like we just were having so much fun and we were kind of living the dream, I suppose, in the sense of like, you know, we're wearing our heels, going to meetings, like pitching to investors, like doing, doing all the things that you think a startup is supposed to be.
[00:06:36] Um, and I was really chasing that dream so hard. I mean, I gave, I would work until 11 p.m. every night. I was waking up early. I was taking every meeting. I was trying to get into incubator programs. I was going to every talk that I could go to, networking with every single person I could network with. So I basically just took all of my ambition and like threw it into this startup. And I mean, I was kind of young at the time.
[00:07:05] I was probably 29 maybe. And my goal, my only goal at the time was I was like, I want to be, I want to make it. I want to sell the company. I want to make a gazillion dollars. Like, we used to sit around and do like valuations where we would just be like, okay, if our company is valued at this, and we sold it for this, we could each take home $800,000. And then post-tax, like we literally would sit around and like play this game. Right, right.
[00:07:34] And it just got to the point where I, I didn't even realize that I was burned out until it was too late. And by that time, I had given the company so much. I had done so much work. I also was, you know, raised in a family where it was like, you just put your head down and you work and that's how you're going to succeed. And so I got super burned out, but I didn't realize it. I just thought this was normal.
[00:08:03] Like this is the price of success or this is the price of, I don't know, New York City startup fame, like whatever I was chasing. I couldn't even tell you what I was chasing. Right. And I just remember always looking for advice on the outside. Like I'd always be like, oh, this investor, like let's go, let's go meet with him because maybe he can tell us about our sales strategy or like, oh, like this mentor could be like really good for us. So it was just always like,
[00:08:31] it was a collecting infinity stones of like other more prestigious people. I love that. Infinity stones. Yes, I understand that. Yeah. Just to like try to, try to like whatever else we could throw in the pot to like make, make it work. And then by the end, I was just totally exhausted. Woke up one day and was just like, oh, I actually think I hate this. I don't even, I don't feel as connected to this anymore. And had so many physical symptoms too.
[00:08:59] Also around this time, probably like two, three years into running the business. I was pregnant. Then I had a baby. It was like my first, my first kid. So I didn't even take any time off. I just came right back to work. So like made all the mistakes, made all the mistakes. And then eventually had a year after that, like was just so burned to a crisp that I had to quit. I had to leave the business. Um, and was so bitter and so angry. And at what? Probably just myself.
[00:09:29] Um, and that was my biggest career wound. And, and I, I, it took years for me to process that and get over that. And, you know, stop blaming myself, stop blaming other people. Like it was just a hot mess. Um, and I didn't wish that on anybody. I was just like, and I, and I also thought, well, I must've just really messed up. Like it, it must've just been my fault. There's something wrong with me. Um, and so when I started coaching people,
[00:09:56] I think maybe I was like giving them the forgiveness that I didn't give myself. And then through that, I think through the process of coaching other people, I actually like healed parts of myself. I definitely want to dive into more of, of the healing that you represent in here, but I'm, I'm curious about your journey to the coaching thing. And I'm fascinated by the fact that you went in sort of the realm of shamanic healing
[00:10:24] as you came around to, to discovering your purpose and applying that stuff. Um, how did you find yourself on the shamanic path for a while? And, you know, why did, what did, how did it affect you? Yeah. I think the shamanic training was probably the most, um, one of the most transformational experiences because I had been so trained to be analytical
[00:10:51] and not rely on my own inner wisdom or help from the spiritual world. I felt so alone before I had really discovered the practice. And so the training program, it was, it was three years. It actually happened right as COVID was starting. So very timely, very good time also to be, you know, learning these skills around capacity and self-reliance.
[00:11:21] Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a very interactive program. So a lot of, um, partner work, a lot of, uh, simulated sessions. Um, and I think that it just, it gave me language, um, for, like I studied sociology as an undergrad, so I love frameworks. I love like thinking about society in terms of like structures and functions.
[00:11:51] And so to have like a spiritual lens for that and to actually be provided with like a spiritual map of like, this is the, this is ordinary reality, you and me on a podcast. Right. But of course there's also non-ordinary reality. There are spiritual realms. There are mind maps, there are, you know, psychic places, there are, um, you know, power places.
[00:12:14] There are places that you can, that you can access, um, energetically that could not be scientifically proven. Right. So I just, I love, I think that the, the inner spiritual geek in me, like just loved it. And it's such, I don't know if you've done, if you've done a lot of shamanism yourself. I haven't done shamanism myself.
[00:12:40] I do, you know, various spiritual paths and, you know, very interested in it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that it's like, um, you know, to me, it's just been a practice about similar to meditation, but like a practice similar to tapping into an inner wisdom and, and learning to trust the information that comes through because there's such consistency in every time you, you journey.
[00:13:10] Right. And so the, I would say that the bedrock of shamanism is like the journeying process where, you know, you physically stay in one place, but mentally, spiritually, you're, you're traveling. And the, the point of it is to, um, go with a, with an inquiry and to go with a question. And so that also appealed to my kind of like traveler or explorer, you know, archetype where like, I love to discover things. I love to find things. I love to travel. So for me, I was like, oh, we're just spiritually traveling.
[00:13:40] Like, this is great. This is like easy. Like cheaper some ways. Yeah. Yeah. So you also, I'm curious as to what your spiritual background, was this a shift for you? I know you were very much in your head and as often we are, was this a shift for you to go into that? And I also read that you do a little tarot card reading. Do you still do that? And what does all that help you with? Yeah. So it did represent a, okay.
[00:14:09] I think on the surface, it represented a big spiritual shift for me because yeah, up until then I was, you know, a girl who worked in corporate America and like, was like, I always loved going. I loved learning about astrology and I loved the I Ching and I like, I loved these sort of, sort of gateway things. Right. Right. Right. But I had, I had never dedicated myself to the study of something over like a multiple year period.
[00:14:32] And so I think that because I took it seriously, I, I think I just learned so much. And to me, it was like learning a new language and just understanding like lexicon and frameworks and like world building really. And it's just a way to look at the world. I found that to be very empowering.
[00:14:58] And in terms of like the other things, I, I would, I'm like a very beginner tarot. Like I'm, I'm just, I'm self-taught. I'm like just learning it, you know? So it's, I'm not, but I just, I love. You just explore with it. Yeah. I'm just exploring with it. Like I love the, I love just doing things without outcomes. Like I love just being like, I'm going to learn this. I'm going to play with this. Right. Right. Yeah.
[00:15:24] I think, you know, it's important to get outside of the framework we grew up with mentally, even spiritually and all those ways, because we don't often realize until we encounter other things that we, we don't have to go one particular path. So we kind of open ourselves up. What are some of the spiritual things that you've been exploring? Well, I'll tell you what, doing this podcast has been very eyeopening.
[00:15:51] Um, there are, I have a large variety of people that come on from, uh, I had someone who's going to be, um, I had someone recently who talked about mindfulness and democracy. I've had psychics on here. I've had people that channel, um, there are, you know, I have all kinds of different people.
[00:16:14] And what comes to me is I don't necessarily know whether their modality is something that I believe in or a path that I'm for. But what I do understand is that I get good information from it regardless, you know, wisdom is wisdom. Yeah. No matter what way it comes in. That's, that's how I view it. And that's how, you know, I'm experiencing it.
[00:16:42] So I, I'm just open to hearing and learning from all these different perspectives that fascinates me like you. Yeah. That's really cool. One interesting thing that you say is your relationship to work is a relationship. And I think we, we other it sometimes and we don't pay attention to that emotional and practical aspect of it. Can you talk to that a little bit?
[00:17:11] Yeah. I think the othering that you're talking about is something that happens. And I think it's because it's such a structure that we're able to walk into and accept without question where it's like, oh no, I have to do that. Why? Because it's work, you know, no, I have to join that call. It's work. No, I have to go. I have to go for two weeks on this trip. It's work. Right.
[00:17:37] And I'm not here to say, oh, you should push back on everything and like, you know, create havoc in your workplace. Like, but I am saying that a lot of the stress and tension you may be experiencing is perhaps you have made agreements with work and you have allowed work to dominate and have final say and total say and total priority over everything else.
[00:18:06] And that may be the source of your energy leakage. Like that may be the reason. So I just think it's worth examining. Like, what are the what are the automatic things that you just well, I have to that's work. Right. That may not necessarily even be true. Sometimes people will be. Oh, I'm, you know, people usually come with a symptom. Right. And in the coaching context, they'll be like, I'm so stressed out. I haven't been able to sleep. Right.
[00:18:36] So like, that's the symptom of what's happening. And then you kind of dig further and you're like, OK, so what are you doing before? Like, I get very practical. I'm like, what are you doing before bed? Like, take me. It's 8 p.m. What are you doing? It's 9 p.m. What are you doing? Right. And, you know, let's say they're like, well, I'm responding to these emails and I've got to, you know, I've got to get this report out. And my boss just pinged me and I'm texting. Just, you know, kind of the workaholic archetype. Right.
[00:19:03] And and just for shits and giggles, really. I mean, I'll be like, well, what if you didn't do it? Not because I'm not because I'm trying to be, you know. Really contrarian, but because I'm curious about the unspoken rules that they're adhering to. Right. And so it's very interesting for me to hear someone say, no, I have to because because why? Right. Say it out loud. Why?
[00:19:32] What are you what will happen if you say no? No. And it's it's it's just examining that piece of it that I think can can, you know. I like to I like to push and see where the tension really is and understand, like, OK, so you're saying you have to what happens if you say no. And is there really a consequence or are you just afraid that they're not going to like you? Like, what's what's really going on? Right. If that makes sense.
[00:20:01] I know that's kind of like a theoretical. I totally get that. Do you think we put put too much emphasis on our work and careers in our lives? I feel like we can get carried away sometimes because especially in America, in our society, it feels like we're that's what we're supposed to do. We're this is where your life is. And I know my my dad, we had a great relationship, loved him very much, but he was very much a workaholic.
[00:20:28] And so his he he dove into his work all the time, day and night. And so I learned from that. And as I have gone through transitions in my life, I've come to I'm struggling at times with the idea. Maybe my work isn't just me. You know, maybe there are other parts of me. I need to pay more attention to. What do you think about that?
[00:20:53] Yeah, I think that's a really common experience where you there are these this is a pattern you witnessed. Right. And and the unwritten rule of this was success happens if you work really, really hard. You know, work is the work is the priority.
[00:21:20] And that's what I don't know how it would sit in your brain, but maybe a thought like and that's what strong people do. You know, right. Right. That that's that's what smart people do or that, you know, fill in the blank. Right. And so we adopt that. I mean, yeah, like.
[00:21:42] My dad was an investment banker who I never saw five days of the week because he's traveling and he's working and and and. And so is it a surprise that I went and got an MBA in finance, even though I don't like finance? Like there are things that we emulate or copy without really being like, is that even what I want to do? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:22:08] And I do think that there's I think we escape into work because sometimes it is easier to just put our heads down and work than to deal with the intricacies of. Yeah. And also, yeah, I think a lot of like to zoom out, I think a lot of the work that I help people do is like an unlearning.
[00:22:37] Because so much of it is like we've just been programmed to do these things and and if you're happy doing it, like fine, you're probably not going to like hang out with a career coach, you know. But if you're if you're having symptoms and you're struggling and you're like, and I'm unhappy and I'm not sleeping and I'm have this weird pain in my shoulder.
[00:22:57] I mean, it's like, OK, then let's look at the root cause and let's look at the relationship, you know, as you mentioned earlier, like the relationship that you have with work. It is a relationship and you are complicit in that you are creating that, allowing that, supporting that to happen.
[00:23:20] And I think a lot of that sort of responsibility for your own part in it is what I had to learn, because with my own like crash and burn startup experience, like I had no one to blame but myself. Like at the end of the day, it was like, oh, I drove that bus 100 miles an hour. Like, oh, oops, like it was me. And so and another thing I say is like you take yourself with you. Right. So.
[00:23:49] Like it didn't end there. I drove another bus 80 miles an hour until I learned, OK, Mandy, maybe you need to stop driving buses like. Right. Maybe a car would be better. A bicycle. Or just don't drive. Take a walk. Like, you know, so it didn't it's not like it ended. And then I was like, oh, I'm all better now. I was like I had to drive another bus, crash that bus and then be like, oh, this really isn't working. Yeah. Yeah. I totally get that. I totally get that.
[00:24:19] So you break the book into four sections. You talk about awakening, healing, creating and embodying. And maybe you could just I know there's we can't get it everything. Maybe you can touch on what do you mean by awakening first off? OK, I think a word that I would use for that is also like pausing or evaluating what's really going on.
[00:24:48] And I think that first stage is OK. So this is the four parts of the book are meant to mirror a healing process. OK. Right. And so the first step of that process is taking a very and I'll use the word like sobering look at the situation that you are in. And so that is evaluating, OK, what are the symptoms? What am I feeling? Am I erratic?
[00:25:15] Am I feeling like high energy manic some days and then low energy crash outs? Like what is the texture of whatever I am going through? Right. Right. So so that's kind of that first part is just pause and look at what's going on with yourself and give yourself the respect and dignity to be like, I don't need to keep pushing all the time.
[00:25:40] I can. I like deserve to pause and reflect on like, oh, what mess did I get myself into? So paying attention to what's going on and checking out those patterns that you've you've been following, whether you know it or not. Yeah. So healing. What really interesting to me is the shamanic piece of this.
[00:26:05] And I don't know how much we want to dive into it, but there's this sense of you talk about this this place of dismemberment where you're. Which is, you know, the things falling apart and breaking down and taking things apart. But you talk about how that's sacred because you're making space for the new.
[00:26:28] And I just I'm curious what your thoughts on, you know, part of the healing process and how the shamanic journey might relate to that. Yeah. Love that question. OK, so I think the way that shamanism relates to life is. In shamanic journeying, there are two. May I mean, this is a generalization, but. If you're new to shamanism, the way I would explain it is you're either.
[00:26:58] Going back to pick up lost parts of yourself or you're letting go of things that don't serve you. OK. So those are kind of like the two main actions in shamanic healing. Right.
[00:27:16] And how that relates to life is I also think in life you're either like driving back to like integrate pieces that you left behind or you're saying, ah, this is like heavy and it's baggage and I don't need to be carrying this anymore. OK. So that's just like the general framework. And then I would say the dismemberment piece is really specific to the healing process itself.
[00:27:42] And the reason that I wanted to outline the there's like four stages of this dismemberment process. But the reason I wanted to outline it is because in every stage of the process, it can be very disorienting. And so if you're like in it and you're like, oh, I'm really having a tough time just like getting motivated to work and I just am stuck and I people don't like me and struggling.
[00:28:09] You know, if you're just like in that moment, I just try to describe each stage so that it can feel less disorienting. OK. Because like the first stage of the dismemberment process is literally like there's a there's a visual where it's like it's like the tower card in the tarot. Right. Which is where you're falling head first. And so if you feel like you if you have the sensation of like unexpectedly falling head first out of a building. Right.
[00:28:38] Like that's probably just the beginning of your initiation of whatever you're going through. OK. Right. OK. And then and then the dismemberment piece, as you said, is, OK, so now you're going to break apart. Right. And this is very difficult for the ego because. Oh, yes, it is. Yeah. Yes, it is. Oh, my. This is like, who am I? I'm lost. I who am I without my title? Who am I without my job?
[00:29:07] Who am I if I don't like the thing that I've spent 10 years doing? Right. I just got a master's in this thing. What? Right. So that that's so many people have that experience. So many people. Yeah. That's the. Yeah. Thank you. So that's like the dismemberment piece, which is like. Like. It literally feels like you're breaking, breaking apart. And like when I was going in that section with the with my brilliant editor, when we're
[00:29:34] going back and forth and I'm like describing like dismemberment and I'm like, you know, feel it feels like your limbs are being torn apart. And my editor was like, OK, so is it like actual limbs or are these like spiritual limbs? And I had to be like, oh, right. Yes. We should like define like your actual limbs will not fall off. That's that's an important note. Yes. But I think I'm so used to like kind of thinking in metaphor that I it was so nice to have
[00:30:01] someone be like, OK, but actually, do you mean they'll be bleeding? Like, no, no, no, probably, probably not like actual blood. Um, and then, you know, but the but as you described earlier, it's like the pieces are falling away so you can make space for something for something new. And then the idea with like the integration piece or like something new coming in is that
[00:30:25] it's it's a you have agency in that you have choice in that, you know, it no longer is something that's happening to you. But it's something where you can say, I actually choose to bring this thing into my life. Yeah. Yeah. Something that really hit me. Part three is about creating and the integration piece, I believe, is part of that that section.
[00:30:49] And maybe I'm mistaken, but there's you talk about something that I have experienced and still to some extent experience. And that's the grieving and letting go of the unlived dream. You know, there was I worked in television for years. And I I mean, from the time I was a kid, I was a media. I was a media kid. Um, and I worked in television. I worked at Discovery. I worked at A&E and I did all this stuff.
[00:31:19] But there's a part of me that always wanted to be that sitcom writer or that, you know, that that's creative side or a different kind of creative side. And so it challenges me still because I think I took some steps that way, but I didn't ultimately push through that way. And so it is a grieving process to say, well, maybe maybe that's not the way life turned out
[00:31:49] right now or the path that I chose in life. How can you help me with that? Well, the language you use, right, I think is an indicator because there is there was a point where you had a choice. You use the words push through. And I think if it were to me, that signals some kind of resistance or some kind of, oh, it's a harder path or some or maybe not just harder path because you're already working in media. So it's not that far away.
[00:32:20] But I guess talk to me more about why the words push through, push through what? Push through what? Answer the question. Yeah. Well, I don't want to get, you know, too personal. I don't want to bore people. But I would say that I think that there's a part of me that didn't have quite the bravery to take those steps and push through. It means to me push through to that level of confidence in myself.
[00:32:51] Okay. Yeah. So that the bravery. Yeah. And we can keep this general enough that people, you know, it's like universal. But like, you know, when you speak about having the bravery to do something or the confidence to do something, I think those are probably the things that you were mourning slash yearning for, you know? Yeah. And the sort of person that you wanted to be.
[00:33:20] And so I think we can hold that. And at the same time, what I would ask someone in your position would be like, does it still, do you still feel grief around that? Like today, do you still feel like, oh, I wish I could be more brave? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:47] I think I probably still do to some extent, but I am coming around to a place of more creativity than I thought I would get to. I'm starting to write more. And that's been really fulfilling for me, although it's still challenging. But you talk about in the creating section, you talk about creating your art and that's making a declaration, whether it matters to anybody else or not.
[00:34:15] Can you talk to me about the importance of using creativity to go along our path, whatever it is? I really feel like, and I kind of realized this halfway through the book, and then I was like, oh, can I just write a book on creativity? Oh, okay. I guess we're going to. Awesome. That'd be great. That'd be great. Because I think that there is such a connective thread, right?
[00:34:40] Because really what we're talking about here is a lot of career wounds is like following other people's directions and doing what you think you're supposed to do. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. You know, let me just do it because I got to pay the bills. Let me just do it because my dad was a doctor, so I'm a doctor, whatever it is. Okay.
[00:35:02] And I think creativity is the antidote to that because creativity is ultimately about self-expression, regardless of outcome. Right? We write because we can't not write, even though we hate to write. You know, or we paint because it's a, to me, it's like a compulsion. And it's never just one thing.
[00:35:30] I mean, I haven't really met that many artists who just have a really wonderful, productive relationship with their art. I mean, there's always a little bit of, of torture. Like, you know, it's, it's always a little bit of like a, my God, I wish I could just not have these impulses and I wish I could just watch TV. Like, why can't I just be like a normal person? Like, why do I have to like write the great American novel? Like what, you know?
[00:36:01] So, but I do, so like that tension exists in artistry, but I think that creativity is, is such a trusting exercise. Because oftentimes also when you start writing or painting or whatever it is, you're not that great at it. And so there's also that sort of trust of like, I just need to keep showing up. I just need to keep putting words on the page. I just need to trust that this story is going somewhere. Right, right.
[00:36:30] Um, and so that, oh, that is like a great practice in self-reliance and, and, and confidence and bravery and like everything that will heal your career wounds, you know? Yeah. Um, it's just a, I think in that section I talk about like a reclaiming of voice. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like, kind of like, um, and also re-narrating the story to yourself.
[00:36:57] I really believe in like grieving, grieving the, the unlived dream, but then also kind of like what you just did where you were like, okay, so that's the feeling that I have. Yes, I have some grief around that, but also I have been writing and I am getting back into, and so like giving ourselves permission to continue the story or re-narrate the story so that it doesn't hurt so much. Like we're, we are in charge. We can tell ourselves whatever we want, you know?
[00:37:27] Right, right. Making your own story. I think you talked about in the book. Yeah. Do you think there are varying views on this, but do you think we should follow our passions or should we follow something we're good at? As an example, I have a friend who's having a tough challenge at work right now. And, but he absolutely loves board games. He loves board games.
[00:37:52] And there was a position with an association that, of board games that came up that he was kind of intrigued about it. But he, he said, I'm not sure I want to do that because I don't know that my, I want this thing to become my work and something I have to do. So I, I guess what's the difference between passion? Should we have passion for what we do in work or is there some sort of different approach?
[00:38:22] I kind of feel like your friend sounds pretty wise because it's like when some things are just for you, you know? I, I don't believe that everything needs to be monetized. Like if your friend's really into board games, I wouldn't be like, Hey, you should start a club and charge $20 a month. You know, I think you should make a board game and then you should set like, I mean,
[00:38:49] I love business, but I don't, some things are just for you. So I think that's sort of the first category is, is like, as your friend probably wisely intuited, like just because I love it, maybe I wouldn't love it if it was like my nine to five. So I think that's like the first distinction. Another distinction is like staying in a job because you're really good at it, but you've like lost all your heart for it.
[00:39:19] That's also not really good, you know? And, and that has to do a lot with like loss aversion and people being like, I've already spent so much time. I don't want to have to read, like, I've already kissed so many butts to be here and get, you know, like get all, I've already paid my dues. Like I can't imagine doing that again. Right. That can be a little dangerous, honestly, because to me that is a little bit of complacency. And so I would kind of watch out for that. And then I think that there's like another category where it's like, you know, creating
[00:39:47] and writing and making art is hard. And so, so you will want to give up like a thousand times because you're going to be like, this isn't getting anywhere. I'm not getting an agent. Nobody's looking at my stuff. What's the point? Right. And I think for that, that just requires discipline. And I kind of hate the word discipline, but like it requires like a lot of repetition, some of which may be very boring and a lot of which you're going to, you're going to have to work a lot before you see any results.
[00:40:15] And so to me, that's just like patience, you know, just like patiently continue to go back, keep working on the manuscript, keep working on the writing, keep like, keep just doing it because that's how you're going to get better. But then I think there's like another category where it's like, you couldn't stop people if you tried. I mean, some people are just tinkerers and they're passionate about something and they're just going to like do it because they love it and it'll be frustrating and it'll be hard,
[00:40:43] but they wouldn't have it any other way. I don't know. I just think it's so, it's so nuanced, but those are kind of the typical scenarios that I would see. In the creativity piece and later on in the book, you say, you talk about listening to that inner voice and you talk about how your intuition doesn't care about your comfort zone. That's really interesting to me. What do you mean by that?
[00:41:13] Your intuition is not logical. Your intuition operates in like 4D, right? So it's not thinking about what is the best way to get from point A to point B. It just sees a point somewhere and is like, that's cool. Go there. Right? So if you're going to follow your intuition or your gut or some kind of weird thought that
[00:41:42] pops into your brain over and over is really what intuition is, right? Sometimes it's a whisper. Sometimes it's like a shout. It just depends on how you receive information. But if you're going to listen to it, it's going to give you crazy instructions. It's not going to be like, okay, finish out this job for the next 18 months. And then, no, it's just going to be like, go do that. And you're going to be like, I have no business doing that. I have no background.
[00:42:11] Like, it's not going to be logical. So of course, like if you're making moves and you're doing like sometimes because it's like 3D, right? Like sometimes you have to step back in order to step forward. Yeah. And I think for a lot of us where everything is calculated and everything is like, I can't take a step back. It seems it's very, very uncomfortable because it seems like we're losing something. We're losing time. We're losing money. We're losing efficiency, et cetera.
[00:42:42] But if you want to win, you have to be super humble and just like do whatever your intuition says because it's not wrong. You get into that creative, that sacred space. And I'm wondering what do you do to create that sacred space for yourself to get to that inner voice? How does that relate to your career and energy management?
[00:43:07] To me, I think it's like just not being afraid of I don't know as an answer. Like I think we really, really value certainty in just like everywhere right now. And I think just being able to sit with like a... Okay. I'll put this into like more concrete terms. Like, okay. Oftentimes I'm working with a client. Okay.
[00:43:34] And they're coming to me because they want solid, clear advice on like what to do next. And so, you know, of course, as a coach, like you ask a lot of open-ended questions that don't have answers that are not like quantifiable. And oftentimes if you haven't really, if you've been heads down and like stressed out and working your butt off like 60 hour weeks, like you're not really like self-reflecting, you know, you're just surviving. Right, right.
[00:44:01] So when you start to ask these deeper open questions, most of the time, like 90% of the time, people are like, I don't know. And it's a, it's, I don't know, which is like the honest truth, but then it's a panic that they don't know because shouldn't they know? Oh my God, I'm so dumb for not knowing. What's wrong with me that I don't know? Everybody else knows. Okay. Right.
[00:44:26] So, so it's, it's the answer is I don't know, which is like, why would you know? This is the first time you're asking yourself this question. And then a flood of like guilt, shame, panic, spiral. And then what in that kind of velocity of emotion, your brain wants like more security and more safety. And so it's going to be like, I don't know. And that scares the crap out of me.
[00:44:54] So let me just go back to doing exactly what I'm doing. Like, and so I think it's the, the, the bravery to be like, I don't know. And well, maybe I'll just spend an hour thinking about it, you know, or like maybe, maybe, maybe I'll spend 10 minutes a day thinking about it. And probably after a week, I'll have a closer answer.
[00:45:20] And then it won't be, I don't know, it'll be, well, I know I don't want this and I know I don't want that, but maybe there's something in the middle. Right. So I just think it's like being comfortable with the extreme discomfort of not knowing. And then, and then going back to the well over time, writing about it, thinking about it and recognizing that like, oh, my brain's freaking out. That's like normal.
[00:45:48] So Mandy, are you telling me if I come to you as, and you're my career coach, you won't tell me exactly what I'm supposed to know and do every time? You mean I have to do some work here? Literally never. I like literally start my sessions with like, by the way, I have no answers. I will not be telling you what to do. I will be affirming what you already know you have to do. That's awesome. That's, that's really interesting.
[00:46:14] I'd like to dive into some of the myths that we play into our, into all the time in our world and our experience. And one of them that pops out to me, and we're not going to get to all of them, but one of them that pops, pops up to me is I can't stop. I can't start over. How do we engage with that thought?
[00:46:39] I don't want to start over is a fear of like losing your position, losing everything you've worked so hard for. And having to suffer the humiliations of other people knowing you had to start over, which is maybe implying that you failed at the thing you tried to do. Um, and being in that beginner stage again.
[00:47:08] Um, you probably know this if you've ever advised someone, given someone advice, you can never talk someone into anything. So I don't really try. I just try to find something that is stronger than that fear.
[00:47:31] So I would steer the person towards, cause you can't argue, you know, even if I went tit for tat point by point and said, no, but this is okay. Because imagine in five years, how much more money, like you can, that doesn't work. You just have to find something that they have more energy for than the fear. And that's the conversation is like, okay, well tell me about your writing or.
[00:48:01] Tell me more about this, this comedy stuff that you wanted to do, or, you know, you just gotta find something that lights them up more. Um, and when, and when they naturally feel the momentum of that and the like, yeah, that is actually what I want. And like, it just, it's like easier to just be like, yeah, okay. Who cares? Like, I'm just like, it, it like defies the logic, the like really intricate logic that
[00:48:31] the brain has like organized. And it becomes like something that pulls them naturally is what I've found. I just, I don't try to argue with anyone. I'm like, okay, we're not going to win this logically. Like, let's just talk about what you want to do. But Mandy, another myth. Everyone is always silently judging me. I know it. I just know it. How do I deal with that idea? I know they are. They always are.
[00:48:58] I usually like, honestly, my approach for that is like, if you want to do something great, you know, if you want to do something different, um, it will have to be in front of other people. Hmm. And to try to understand the root of it, like what makes you sensitive to other people's judgments?
[00:49:27] Is it because you judge yourself very harshly? You know, are you preemptively judging yourself? Was your, was your family judging you? You know, did you have like incidents in high school? Like, I try to talk about that stuff because you cannot be successful in isolation and silently. Like, like, you know, you're, you want to run, you want to have influence and run a podcast. Guess what?
[00:49:56] People need to hear the podcast, right? Like you want to write a book. Guess what? You're going to need to write like the shitty first draft first. Right. So, and like, you want to run a business and you want to promote it on social media, you have to post it, you know? So, so I think what I would, would say is like, if you want to do something big and great, it will be visible.
[00:50:22] And that is like, we have, a lot of us have like issues with being, being seen. Like, I want to help people. I want to make an impact, but don't look at me, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And so that's the, that's the real thing that has to be addressed. You mentioned imposter syndrome, which I know everybody probably experiences in their lives.
[00:50:44] And you mentioned that it kind of is accepted or pushed on a little bit by corporate America. Why, why is that? What do you think that's about? I think corporate America is like trying to be helpful and like build confidence in people and, and like normalize it and give it a name.
[00:51:09] But I think that anytime, even what I've seen in corporate settings, when, whenever you mention imposter syndrome, everybody just gets more freaked out. So like, I don't actually think it's like very helpful. But I think imposter syndrome is like very normal, you know, if like in a corporate context, right? Like this goes back to visibility and this goes back to like, you know, now you have to do something that you haven't done, but do it in front of other people. Right. So like your first time managing a small team.
[00:51:39] Okay. Like, you know, I also think imposter syndrome is like, everybody feels it no matter what level you're at. And it just means like, probably lack of experience. But I, I don't know, I try to joke with people and I'll be like, but why would you be good at that thing? Like, like you just got transferred to this department and you've never like, because they saw potential in you. Great.
[00:52:07] But you've never done that before. So why would you be good at it? Like, you're going to kind of probably not be good at it the first two times and then you'll get better. But I think it's this, it's this, it's like professionalism weaponized where everybody feels like they have to be like looking good and doing good at all times. And like, there's no room for error because that is also like culture of corporate America, right? Like no room for mistakes.
[00:52:36] And like, we always get it done. And, um, and so like learning curve where like you haven't done something before. I don't know. I just try to take the pressure off of it and be like, of course you're not good. Who would be? That's why, that's why you're doing like, but a year from now you'll be better at it. Right. And you probably won't feel this way.
[00:52:58] And I also think like something that could be helpful is sometimes I'll ask a client like, okay, but think about your actual like job and your coworkers and stuff. Like, is there a person or two who's rooting for you? Who's like your bestie at work? Like, and they'll be like, yeah, actually like there's this girl and she's really nice. And she's, and I'm like, yeah. So there are people that are rooting for you. Like there are people who like want you to succeed.
[00:53:25] Like, so I think actually, um, getting specific. Cause sometimes we can just think of like the masses as like all these people who like are going to watch us fail and laugh at us. As if everybody is focused on us and what we do. Right. Cause everybody's thinking about themselves. This is like something else. I'm like, nobody's really, it's not that serious. Like they're not really thinking about you.
[00:53:50] But then also instead of just this like blank mess, I'll be like, no, think of like actual who I was like, name someone, name someone specific at work who would actually be like laughing at you, you know? And, and they might have one person, but it's also helpful to name because it's like, yeah, it might be just like one person who's kind of not nice. Kind of a jerk. Yeah. Kind of like, okay. So there's one jerk. We exist with jerks. That's okay. We still accept them, but they're jerks. Yeah. Like, so there's one jerk.
[00:54:20] Who else? And they'll be like, well, I guess that's kind of it. I'm like. Yeah. Okay. And then who would support you? And they'd name, you know, two, three people. I'm like, great. Those people are like in your corner. So I just try to make it really specific. So it's not just this like ominous cloud, you know, that's coming towards them.
[00:54:40] I know we have to wind things up soon, but I want to get to this inner block, which kind of is to me kind of a next, a next step in that place where I've been stuck trying to figure out my next step for some time. You know, I'm, I'm in this workplace. It's toxic. It's toxic. I just don't know what to do next. How do we face that block? And I realized that this was a lot of stuff I'm throwing at you.
[00:55:10] No, no, no, no. I mean, I'm just, I'm genuinely think I was like thinking about a specific client that I've worked with. Like, I think that you just have to do a little bit every day. Like, this is a generalization. But overall, I do think most people know what they want to do. I do think that they, maybe not like perfectly, but they've got a general idea. And they've also created these obstacles in their own mind.
[00:55:40] Reasons why it's not a good idea. And so I think it's like part of what I do in the coaching is like, I'll ask them. I'll be like, I'll, I'll, I'll just start to remove variables. You know, I'll be like, okay, so let's say tomorrow you were forced to do the thing that you think you should do, but it's not a good idea. Right. The, the, like the more dream life that's impractical. Okay. Let's say for whatever reason, someone was like, guess what? You've been chosen.
[00:56:11] And if you don't do this, you're going to be, you know, whatever, like just create a scenario where we're removing choice. And I'm like, okay, so then what would you do? How would you do it? Now you have to, you have no other option. Right. And just see how they respond and see how they react to that. Um, so that's kind of a game you can play with yourself too. Right.
[00:56:33] Where it's like, and sometimes I'll ask them the opposite where I'm like, okay, so let's say that every other option was removed from the table and you had to stay at the company that you're at for like the next five years. What would you do? Just also to, to play with it, you know? And then, okay, that option is over next, next scenario. Like now you have to do, now you have to go after the dream life. Like, and it's also just see what comes up. Right.
[00:56:56] Cause if, cause if they're like, okay, well the dream life is I want to, I want to do standup or something, but they're like a consultant. They're like, I can't go from that to that. Right. Right. I'll be like, all right, well then what happens? And you can, you can see the, um, you can see the internal blocks that come up. They'll be like, well, I can't do that because X, Y, Z. And then we play with that. We're like, all right, well, let's look at that. Is that true? You know, if you had to, what would you do?
[00:57:23] And it's just very interesting to see how badly someone actually wants something versus like the just reasons they're telling themselves that are either outdated or just not true. The soul retrieval exercise, I think is really valuable in, in taking those parts that we, you know, sort of scatter all, scatter all over the place and integrating them. Like, like you say.
[00:57:50] Right. Um, so I, I, I think that's, that's great stuff in there. I guess I'm looking for a final piece of advice that you'd like to share with our listeners or if there's anything else that you feel like you want to express before we close things up here. I guess the final thing I'll share is like, I also have gotten back to my writing and. And.
[00:58:18] I'm doing it, I'm, I'm doing something just as a spiritual practice, like, just cause I love it. Like I'm, I'm writing a little romance novel, like just for myself. It's just not, you know, and I keep thinking I don't have time. And then every time I think I don't have time, I just go sit at my computer and write for 10 minutes and I always feel better. Yeah. Yeah. So I think what I'm learning from that is like just stealing little moments for yourself to do what you want to do.
[00:58:45] And I think what I'm, what I'm subconsciously doing is sort of strengthening that belief that, you know, I can create stuff and that I'm a creative person. And that's very important for, for my identity, you know, and for me to feel like I have a purpose is very important.
[00:59:08] And so, you know, if you are stuck in a job where you're kind of like frustrated and not living up to your full potential, like, I think the best antidote is honestly just like steal 20 minutes here and there. And go do the thing that you want to do. You know, it doesn't take, I keep having all these reasons why all the plot isn't really odd, you know, kind of hungry.
[00:59:31] Like there's all these reasons why I can't sit down and write for 15 minutes, but every time after I do, I feel better. So I think that is like, you know, grab your life back in 15 minute increments is like what the advice I would give. That's what I'm personally living right now. I love that. Mandy, thank you so much for joining me on Big Universe. It's been a pleasure. This is great stuff.
[00:59:57] And the book is Heal Your Career Wounds, Navigating the Trauma of Today's Workplace. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you so much for having me. This was really great. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. Mandy Tang is a career coach and holistic healer. She runs the popular TikTok account at Career Coach Mandy. And she also, you're on YouTube as well. I know I watched you on YouTube some. And so that stuff is awesome.
[01:00:24] You can visit her online at MandyTang.co. Thanks so much for joining us on Big Universe. Make sure you check us out on Facebook. We're still on there. Thanks, everybody. I'm Jim Lefter. We'll talk to you next time on Big Universe. I'm Suzanne Giesemann.
[01:00:50] And if you've ever wondered about life after death or if it's possible to connect with higher consciousness, I invite you to join me for my podcast, Always Connected. It's my mission to share with you that a connection with loved ones who have passed and divine guidance is always available. And we are so very loved. I want to teach you how to live a consciously connected and divinely guided life. Listen here on the mindbodyspirit.fm podcast network.
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